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 Post subject: State Tournament
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:42 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:31 am
Posts: 58
With no team scoring is there any chance of the individual tournament eventually dropping the 1a-2a/3a-4a split and combining it for one true public schools state champ? What are the thoughts of some of the area coaches?


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 Post subject: Re: State Tournament
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:16 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:30 pm
Posts: 115
Honestly, I’m good either way with it. Would be cool to see how much respect Maryland Wrestling gets after 5-10 years of a single state champ structure though.

Would like to know the qualification protocol though. An 8 line regional bracket based on points would absolutely penalize the teams who seek out tougher competition. Would going to a 16 line region or just keep 8 regions that feed into a 32 line state bracket be the way to go? Of course MPSSAA might have to change their rules up a bit for a 32 line bracket for maximum matches in a day or weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: State Tournament
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:52 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:04 pm
Posts: 171
32 man state championship is the next move we should make!

Go back to the old 8 districts in Maryland - smaller districts get 3 to states minimum
Larger 5 maximum...

for a 32 man bracket - seeded by a committee

NO MORE REGIONALS -season is 1 week shorter!

Win Win


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 Post subject: Re: State Tournament
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:02 pm
Posts: 116
I have heard multiple ideas kicked around and you're more likely to get 4 separate classes than 1 single tournament. Each state is leaning towards more champions than less.

We received a survey asking how we feel about current regional alignments and classifications. Nobody really seems to be a fan of what they've done by including/not including certain schools in the count and the imbalance of power in certain regions.

As for team championships go, I've heard the idea of dividing each region into 2 sections and the top 2 teams advancing into a 16 team bracket and wrestling out for a state title. So theoretically 2 schools from the same region could meet in the state finals. Football did something very similar but with 8 schools up until 2002.


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 Post subject: Re: State Tournament
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:01 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:16 pm
Posts: 71
I think it's silly for a small state like MD to crown 3 state champs and 20 all state wrestlers per weight. It cheapens both accomplishments and is disingenuous. It's confusing for casual fans. It has to be confusing for college coaches, and probably leads them to overlook recruiting in the state. It sometimes encourages kids to compete at a post season weight that isn't ideal for their performance, in favor of an "easier path". In my opinion, a unified state tournament would be better for MD wrestling.

- Tim Grover
Montgomery Blair HS


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 Post subject: Re: State Tournament
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:05 am
Posts: 104
I would love to see one state tournament (32 man bracket place top eight) with team scoring....along with 3 duals. (1A/2A, 2A/3A, and 3A/4A).

We get the added dual classification, and the one state tournament. 4 titles...didn't they say that was the max anyway.

JMO.

_________________
Don't watch the clock; do what it does. Keep going.


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 Post subject: Re: State Tournament
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:37 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:30 pm
Posts: 115
Personally, I can’t stand the new dual format. I don’t know a single person who voted for it either. Can anyone fill me in on what Lauer’s new proposal? I haven’t heard the specifics regarding it yet.

Love the idea of one state tournament but would like to keep the team score. Top 8 placing seems like a good call too


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 Post subject: Re: State Tournament
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:04 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:01 pm
Posts: 318
This is the annual debate I always say I won't get in again and yet always find myself jumping right back into. I think 16 years of coaching and discussing on here have taught me that there are two crowds... There are the wrestling purists who follow it all the time, know who college wrestlers are, watch it on tv, and care about the sport at levels other than high school. The other group cares a ton about wrestling, but mostly at the high school varsity level and is well-versed in other varsity sports and wonders why wrestling is treated so oddly compared to other sports of similar enrollment.

Growing up I played baseball more than I wrestled and having played that and soccer also at the varsity level, it's always confused me why people wouldn't want more participation and growth over prestige and exclusion. No one cares if a shortstop is on a 1A team or a 4A team... colleges still scout both. No one cares if a football running back wins on a 1A team or a 4A team... they scout both... I've never heard of a college scout dismissing a running back from a small 1A school because they only won a 1A state title...

The kids who want to be scouted will wrestle at national tournaments, Fargo, etc... in the off season. As long as varsity wrestling is part of high school sports, it should be run like other high school sports. There should be four separate divisions, like every other sport. It isn't about who is the greatest wrestler of all time... If you make it so hard to be successful that no kid can try it as a 9th grader and succeed, the sport will continue to die. Forfeits have killed our sport for a long time. I'd rather see numbers of wrestlers increasing, even if they aren't as good, if it means more participation and popularity. Existing as the best in a fringe sport makes us more like a lot of the Olympic events we're watching now and less like football, baseball, soccer, etc... We already nearly were dropped from the Olympics while equestrian synchronized swimming and team handball remained... If people continue to advocate one champion and one team title, you'll have five really awesome wrestlers and 30 really supportive elderly fans there to cheer them on...

I'd rather grow the sport and increase participation and popularity than worry about whether a specific kid can be seen as elite, or merely really good for Maryland...


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 Post subject: Re: State Tournament
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:42 am 

Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:53 pm
Posts: 148
I think every year I also tell myself I'm not getting involved in this discussion as well, and then I read Shawn's post and end up getting involved lol. In all seriousness Shawn it's nothing personal your posts are always pretty articulate and your arguments are well thought out. We just don't see eye to eye on this one.

I don't think it's necessarily true that if your a hard core wrestling fan your out of touch with how other sports go. I coach and ref in the youth leagues here in our state, I try to follow all the high school results and attend any big tournaments, plus my DVR is set to record all the college wrestling on the BIG10 network. So I guess I'm a pretty big wrestling fan. That being said I also played baseball in high school and while wrestling was the sport I was personally better at my high school was way more successful at baseball then wrestling as far as team sports go. Heck my younger brother actually gave up wrestling to focus on lacrosse in high school. My point is people can be very involved or wrapped up in wrestling and it doesn't necessarily mean they have no idea how other sports are run in high school. It's just that wrestling is already different then most other high school sports.

I can tell you that after taking a bunch of first time parents and wrestlers to there first varsity dual meets this year (the team I coach is very young and inexperienced) the concept of a forfeit was very strange to them. A lot of them had trouble grasping how a team could compete without the bare minimum number of starters. While we're used to it in the wrestling world I can see how an outsider thinks it's strange. Think about it have you ever seen a varsity baseball game played with 6 players on the field, or a football game played with 8 guys on offense vs 9 on defense? Of course not. Yet in wrestling it's commonplace. In fact with our new dual format teams who don't even field full lineups routinely make the "playoffs" now. This is why I never liked people using other sports to advocate for wrestling having 4 separate divisions. Yes I know "this sport has 4 separate divisions and this many schools participate in it and wrestling has as many varsity programs so we should have 4 separate divisions" is always the argument. The truth is though in those other team sports meet the minimum number of athletes to field a team. As we all know in wrestling you can have two varsity wrestlers and be a varsity wrestling team. That's why that argument never really held any water with me. Which leads me to the biggest and most obvious way wrestling is different it's more of an individual sport, especially at tournament time, then it is a team sport.

I'm also not buying the argument that numbers are down or fan interest isn't climbing because it's too hard to win a state championship. Maybe I'm way off on this one but I don't believe a kid is out there saying "I would go out for the wrestling team but I heard they only have two divisions for their state championship. That's "s...". I think I'll just play basketball." Same goes for supposed potentially fans of the sport. Again I don't think someone comes to a wrestling match and loves it and gets wrapped up in the action and later finds out that there are only two separate individual divisions for states and says "well I thought I liked this sport but now I'm never going back." It just seems like a straw man argument to me. Again as someone who spent most of the year coaching 5 & 6 year olds as well as coaching mostly first time parents, I can tell you that some of them got really into not only there children's matches but also the other kids matches and even the high school matches we attended. They seem to be slowly developing an interest and passion for the sport. Others seemed less into it and still at the end of the year are calling singlets "onesies" lol. I don't think the level of difficulty in winning a state championship is going to matter to either group of these parents.

Whatever happens, whether we go to a new 1 very rough to win individual state tournament or water it down to 4 separate classifications I don't think interest as a whole is going to spike all that much. I do however agree with you that no matter what the kids who are legitimate D1 prospects will get recruited either way


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 Post subject: Re: State Tournament
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:13 am 

Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:36 am
Posts: 66
What I find so interesting is those talking on the forum tend to see things as binary. There are solutions that allow both. It might be a little more work but possible. Here is one for the individual.

Have 4 Champions and then the following week have the tournament of champions. Top 3 make tournament of Champions + PS. That is 4x3 + 3 = 15.....One person (random draw) gets a bye. Then have 16 man bracket. It may not be easy but there is one of many possible solutions. It gives those the satisfaction of winning, and then determining the ultimate "winner". There will be some that choose not to do it, but I as a fan of HS wrestling think that too many times we have to find the "perfect" solution.

The enemy of good is perfection....

Just one person's opinion


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 Post subject: Re: State Tournament
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:49 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:38 pm
Posts: 320
Location: New Windsor, MD
With 4 state tournaments I would be willing to bet that you would see quite a few weights struggle to fill a bracket. Some regions may be able to send 4 qualifiers but my feeling is that would not be the case for all regions.

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The day you take complete responsibility for yourself, the day you stop making any excuses, thats the day you start to the top.
-O.J. Simpson


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 Post subject: Re: State Tournament
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:21 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:56 pm
Posts: 610
Location: Westminster, MD
As a former college coach (DIII-Salisbury & McDaniel) and former MD National Team Coach (Both pre-Fargo and Fargo)-- I can tell you that college coaches respect states that do well at national events. They respect Aaron Brooks, Kurt McHenry, Kyle Snyder, Helen Maroulis, Pat Downey, Miles Martin (yeah, I know--NJ--but he wrestled here)....

A smart coach isn't handing out money based on what state you're from. This isn't like Idaho starting a girls lax team, seeing an applicant from Garrison Forest and offering her a ride sight unseen.

Most college coaches don't have much room to work monetarily anyway, unless they are part of the Top 15 programs, fully endowed with entrenched summer camps.

As for "respect" Maryland might get? Measure that for me....would you? The one-state concept is desired by armchair quarterbacks only. Not one of my state champs feels cheated that his gold medal didn't have 3A-4A teams on it.

_________________
-Winters Mill High School
-Grindstone Wrestling Club
-Mat Rats Junior League
-CMSWL


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 Post subject: Re: State Tournament
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:33 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:31 pm
Posts: 21
JLowe wrote:
As a former college coach (DIII-Salisbury & McDaniel) and former MD National Team Coach (Both pre-Fargo and Fargo)-- I can tell you that college coaches respect states that do well at national events. They respect Aaron Brooks, Kurt McHenry, Kyle Snyder, Helen Maroulis, Pat Downey, Miles Martin (yeah, I know--NJ--but he wrestled here)....

A smart coach isn't handing out money based on what state you're from. This isn't like Idaho starting a girls lax team, seeing an applicant from Garrison Forest and offering her a ride sight unseen.

Most college coaches don't have much room to work monetarily anyway, unless they are part of the Top 15 programs, fully endowed with entrenched summer camps.

As for "respect" Maryland might get? Measure that for me....would you? The one-state concept is desired by armchair quarterbacks only. Not one of my state champs feels cheated that his gold medal didn't have 3A-4A teams on it.


Great points coach! Maryland should get MORE respect considering the #1 P4P Male and Female in the World are both from Maryland.

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D. Hicks
South River High School
"Believe"


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 Post subject: Re: State Tournament
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:02 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:24 pm
Posts: 348
Location: Conowingo, MD
Loved the 4 class dual state championship series this year. Especially for the small schools it added a degree of excitement and anticipation coming down to the end of the season that hasn't been there for a lot of schools in the past. If I had to change it up a little I'd forego the regions and just select the top 16 teams and put them in a seeded bracket.

Individual state tournament is fine the way it is although I'd like to see it done on 6 mats over 3 days. Going to 6 mats would allow us to find a better venue than a darn horse barn with nothing around it. The MIAA's have found a great location at Harford County Community College venue with tons of hotels and restaurants and bars in the area for the attendees to have a good time outside of the wrestling.

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Perryville High School Wrestling


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 Post subject: Re: State Tournament
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:41 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:00 pm
Posts: 243
JLowe wrote:
As a former college coach (DIII-Salisbury & McDaniel) and former MD National Team Coach (Both pre-Fargo and Fargo)-- I can tell you that college coaches respect states that do well at national events. They respect Aaron Brooks, Kurt McHenry, Kyle Snyder, Helen Maroulis, Pat Downey, Miles Martin (yeah, I know--NJ--but he wrestled here)....

A smart coach isn't handing out money based on what state you're from. This isn't like Idaho starting a girls lax team, seeing an applicant from Garrison Forest and offering her a ride sight unseen.

Most college coaches don't have much room to work monetarily anyway, unless they are part of the Top 15 programs, fully endowed with entrenched summer camps.

As for "respect" Maryland might get? Measure that for me....would you? The one-state concept is desired by armchair quarterbacks only. Not one of my state champs feels cheated that his gold medal didn't have 3A-4A teams on it.


I agree completely!


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 Post subject: Re: State Tournament
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:38 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:53 pm
Posts: 148
For the record I was fine with the old system the way it was. 2 dual champs and 2 tournament champs worked and was pretty fair I felt. I think the MPSSAA fixed something that wasn't broken.

My reason for leaning towards the 1 state individual state championship isn't because of a lack of understanding how other varsity sports work or due to some old school tough guy mentality of "back in my day we only had 1 champ! And you had to earn it! Grrrr" Quite the contrary actually, I'm 34 and we had 2 separate divisions when I was in high school. Honestly if they had 4 separate divisions I think I could have been a state champ. Conversely if it were only one division I would have finished even lower then I already did lol.

The reason I'm saying maybe now is the time for going to 1 tournament is because the MPSSAA has made the individual tournament just that, it's Strictly for Indivduals now. For better or worse we decide team state championships now by dual meets only. The whole reason almost every state has separate classifications for high school sports is because larger schools absolutely do have an advantage when it comes to team sports. It's a hell of a lot easier to field a team when you have well over 2000 kids vs a school that has around 500. So as long as there was a team title on the line at the state tournament then there was a pretty valid and sensible reason for having separate classifications. If we're all being honest though the size of ones school doesn't have anything to do with how good an Indivdual wrestler can become. A few years ago Southern Garrett had two of the best pound for pound wrestlers in the state and they were a 1A school. Would anyone argue that Aaron Brooks or Jason Kriasser would somehow be worse wrestlers if they attended a 2A school? With the new system in place the state tournament is a tournament now only for Indivdual accomplishments and bragging rights. So what's the argument for keeping two separate divisions now? Just because that's how it always was? Just because it's easier?

Also going to 1 tournament would solve everyone's biggest grip... No more point system!! As of right now any wrestler can qualify for regions by placing in their county/conference tournaments. Top 33% I think? Of course the biggest problem with this is counties/conferences aren't separated by divisions, so a school like Southern in AA county has wrestlers competing against an entire county of 3A/4A guys who aren't even in their post season division but can still keep them from qualifying. If you have one state tournament that's no longer the case. Now they'd probably have to tweak something or makeup districts or whatever but still you'd have something where everyone is competing in the 1st leg of the postseason.

I will say if they do go to 1 tournament it'd better be a 32 man bracket. They already have venues set up for 8 mats and two simultaneous 16 man bracket tournaments. Don't use the 1 tournament excuse to screw 16 kids per weight class out of the experience of wrestling in states. And place top 8! Just like NCAAs do.


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